Author Topic: MK Mafia: Peach's Castle -GAME- (Cancelled for a few weeks until Accj's ends)  (Read 36581 times)

Offline MattC

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Re: MK Mafia: Peach's Castle -GAME- (Day 7)
« Reply #180 on: July 22, 2015 »
Excuse me, but do you see all the comments below from the participants? There weren't as many as you think. Toad (and S.T.), Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, Bowser, Boo, King Boo, and possibly Toadette.
Look at Yoshiman's. He had 8 different roles for 13 people.

So far I see one guy quitting and another defending you.

Yoshiman's Mafia was unique but it made sense. It was thought out from the beginning, you were after a single person and the role distribution was fair. You had 9 roles for 11 people. Stop acting like the Super Toad is the same as Toad. Having an extra life is extremely valuable in the game like this. You really didn't think the roles through the the beginning, but honestly, that would've been okay if it was just that.

And what you call "stupid and unnecessary crap" is actually daily twists. I added these to make the game more interesting than a typical mafia game. If everything is just doctor, nurse, townies, and mafia, it is extremely boring. Do you see the contestants complaining? No. They are enjoying this activity while it lasts.
Again, you're not thinking through with these twists or whatever. The whole point of a mafia game is for the participants to eliminate the bad guys before the bad guys can eliminate them. Your twists really don't add to that. The day four one was... some vague message from an outside player, I guess? The day four one was a mushroom from another outside player. Didn't really add anything to the story. Day five was the survey which implied that players were supposed to explore the castle or something, I guess that should've been addressed earlier? And day six I addressed in my first post. All you did was make everything more confusing. What's the purpose of adding clones or whatever? Why are you adding someone who's probably never played the game before? Why are you bringing someone back? It almost seems like you were trying to duct tape the criticisms about the town being too powerful.

To be really honest about the participants, I don't think they know what they're doing. They lynched Rafal because he made a joke. WiiUFan and RLWilliams just kind of gave up. No one is actually giving any depth to why they're suspecting and lynching people. They're probably not complaining because they've never participated in a mafia game before.

The only people I see complaining are the people who aren't playing. I wonder why...
There are a lot of people here who want to play Mafia but don't want to start another while one is running, it's a respect thing. We're complaining because you're not doing a good job running it. I think you should play in a few before you decide to host one.

And I'm not saying complaining, but complaining in a harsh way. If you say it nicer, I might actually change it. If you don't like the thread, just ignore it. You're not part of the game, so what's the big deal?
Jesus, learn to take a hit. You really need to get off your high horse here. You're going to learn that people are going to come down on you for the things you say and do, and you're "I have an opinion" and "just ignore it" rebuttals aren't going to work. I get that your a proud person who holds themselves highly, but I am too. I'm coming down on you harsh because I think you need someone to be tough on you. Not everyone is going to sugarcoat their criticism.

Don't forget the majority of people here are newcomers. They aren't 100% experts and need some help...
This is one of the base reasons why the game didn't do well. I already addressed why.

RobinFTW was the cop. He had the right BY ME to say whatever he wanted.
btw, did you even see your link? It is irrelevant to the rules of the game.
Matt, the clones were there for a reason. They don't affect the actual game except that they are extra people.
1. I get that, sure, but he told everyone who King Boo was. Who do you think they're going to lynch? He was Mario too, so that means that people are going to take his word for it. If he's right, the game is pretty much over (because EL, your clones or Rafal are the last Boo(s). If he's wrong, he just wasted a the town's day and got one of them killed. Ergo, it ruined the game.

2. EL didn't actually bold his vote to lynch the clone. Your first rules says he had to. He broke the rule.

3. Adding extra people to the game affects the game.
hey

Offline RobinFTW

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Re: MK Mafia: Peach's Castle -GAME- (Day 7)
« Reply #181 on: July 22, 2015 »
Sorry for saying this but I feel like I need to redo this another time---1-2 weeks after Accj's ends.
Accj, you can start yours now if you want to.
NOTE: I will be using the same thread and will be deleting all the posts except for the first one---sorry but it must be done.
SIGN-UPS will be in the sign-up thread so we can redo this soon. They will end in a couple of weeks!
So you're canceling this one? Oh wait nvm.

Here is my Sm4sh license:
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Offline Bowser498

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Re: MK Mafia: Peach's Castle -GAME- (Day 7)
« Reply #182 on: July 22, 2015 »
Sorry for saying this but I feel like I need to redo this another time---1-2 weeks after Accj's ends.
Accj, you can start yours now if you want to.
NOTE: I will be using the same thread and will be deleting all the posts except for the first one---sorry but it must be done.
SIGN-UPS will be in the sign-up thread so we can redo this soon. They will end in a couple of weeks!
So you're canceling this one? Oh wait nvm.
This one, but I'm starting a new one in 1-2 weeks, but after Accj's ends. Until then, I will create a storyline (same place), new roles, etc.


-IN THE PROCESS OF REDOING MY SIG- :ssb4yoshi: :ssb4bowser:

Offline Yoshiman222

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Excuse me, but do you see all the comments below from the participants? There weren't as many as you think. Toad (and S.T.), Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, Bowser, Boo, King Boo, and possibly Toadette.
Look at Yoshiman's. He had 8 different roles for 13 people.

So far I see one guy quitting and another defending you.

Yoshiman's Mafia was unique but it made sense. It was thought out from the beginning, you were after a single person and the role distribution was fair. You had 9 roles for 11 people. Stop acting like the Super Toad is the same as Toad. Having an extra life is extremely valuable in the game like this. You really didn't think the roles through the the beginning, but honestly, that would've been okay if it was just that.
I just wana point from this that I typically take about a few months to plan these things out from start to finish - when certain events happen and how powerful each role gets. It's not an easy task to balance such things while adding new things (especially since I've tried adding what are known as ba*erd roles, which are very game-breaking roles. Revival is in fact known to be one such of these).

If you want help, there's an old topic in the archives that helped me set up my first game when I did.

I suggest if it's your first time hosting, start with a basic game to help you understand what it takes to host such a game. It really is different to host than play, so starting off with something easy will greatly help with later on. Fyi - a basic game consists of the simplest roles from the Mafia,  Townie, Cop, Doctor, and sometimes a Godfather (with a few exceptions including I think a serial killer and some other town role...? Look for the flash animation in that link I posted if you wana know in full details).

Offline The Shattered Legacy

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Please read the post as I think it will be useful not just for mafia, but just overall conducting yourself. If you don't, fine, but that's your loss.



Okay, let's analyze the game and mafia generally as objectively as possible (btw I'm in general agreement with Matt and Yoshiman's comments):

>Mafia is meant to be a game focused on observing social interactions between players, and observing patterns or other traits of others to formulate arguments as to their innocence/guilt. Naturally, beginners won't be as skilled in directing conversation and scumhunting, but just expecting everyone to direct the flow of game for you, or jumping on one person and no-one providing any further arguments for OR against and bandwagoning, doesn't really allow this crucial aspect of the game to come out.

>Mafia pits a generally uninformed town majority against an informed mafia minority; i.e. the town do not know (excluding investigative power roles) who is mafia, but mafia most certainly do. This was achieved reasonably okay in this game with 8 vs 3.

>The existence of power roles of any sort on the town should offset the mafia's ability for consistent kills, but not to the point where mafia can get walled out by protection and then outed through investigative roleclaim/reports.
In this game, we have:
Town: a cop, a character who is effectively a mason with the cop, a doctor, two 1 hit bulletproofs, and a 1-use unkillable, and two vanilla townies.
Mafia: two vanilla mafia, one who finalizes kills, and a random mafia aligned serial killer-like role (one-shot only) that does NOT have a certain kill if they use it, AND for some reason cannot vote for that day phase.

Town have up to 4 characters who can block a kill, mafia have up to 2 but their kills can all be blocked. In addition, every day, two characters can confirm the identity of a town/mafia, and on the chance a Bowser uses the kill move, they automatically cast suspicion on themselves because they can't vote to set up a kill.

To me this means that town are power heavy and as long as cop and mason/cop claim early, doc can continue to protect them and the mafia will probably be all killed off.

How I would change the roles:
Get rid of Luigi, replace with either a Toad or perhaps an Insane Cop (reversed town/mafia reads) but tbh one investigative role is enough
Lose one Super Toad and replace with a Toad
King Boo should be a godfather character (appears innocent to Mario)
Bowser should have a kill that cannot be healed/blocked, and they should not lose their vote penalty

>Unless the events do not impact on gameplay, they should be disclosed before the game even starts.
I'll elaborate on clones, hosts joining in the game, and revivals later, but for a game focused on social interaction and pattern recognition is significantly hurt when random factors like this appear. "Twists" to the game make it deviate away from mafia to the point where this isn't mafia, but a game inspired by mafia but is actually "host determines what they feel like for the rules and players will have to adapt". This isn't fun (I'd argue that the players in this game simply don't understand what mafia is MEANT to be about and thus didn't really mind, but from the perspective of those who play mafia as it's meant to be run and enjoy it, it's painful to see).
Also, it's only boring when no-one talks. =P

>A host should never join their own game in any playable capacity.
I don't care if the clones are supposed to not know other players' alignment. The host behind them does, and can manipulate results at will. For all I know, Clone 1 and Clone 3 could both be mafia, but once Clone 1 gets majority, the host could say "actually you killed a town player!"

>Adding player numbers into a game will distort the probabilities for determining LYLO/MYLO scenarios.
In most cases, adding a mafia player, even if a townie is added as well, will greatly favor mafia as they can now kill less people before gaining 50%+ of the player count. Even with clones.

>Revival is dangerous, even if the player's role is changed, as their existing knowledge of previous events can be potentially abused, and also contributes to player count issues as above.
The most extreme examples can be when an ex-investigative role (especially detective) becomes mafia. If they have a good index of suspicion as to which player has what role when they were town, they could tell their now mafia buddies this and secure a crucial power role kill. Also, players in game generally don't change their opinion of a recently revived player in enough time in the case that said player has changed alignment. You should never continue reviving players because the reality of mafia is not everyone will be able to be involved from start to finish - if you want that, go play The Resistance or something.

>Big big one: NEVER allow players to reveal any information they know on death (unless you are on EpicMafia and have Wills on, but those are night only, lol)
This just breaks the game. Cop dead? "I know x y z are town and a b c are mafia" Doc dead? "I healed l m n"

>Remember, the more information is known via power roles or host deciding to reveal them, the more likely town will win. Consider roles that confuse information received for a more complex but less broken role setup.
Town are balanced despite superior numbers because they are uninformed. Don't have too many investigative roles unless mafia can counter that with killing ability, blocking ability or investigation of their own (the latter is absurdly powerful). Throwing a godfather and a miller in already makes cop less powerful, so consider that for another game.



Subjective comments:

"Mafia relies on creativity" - it relies on players being willing to talk, question each other, and generally interact on a deeper social level than what this game demonstrated. It's not really an activity where you can no-brain it and go 'today I vote x, tomorrow y'. Creativity should be limited to a different role setup or starting on night instead of day. It shouldn't depend on day-to-day events just to make it seem interesting.

"8 roles for 13 people" - quality and not quantity of the roles is important. As I stated above, dumping loads of defensive power roles on town really shuts mafia out and they have to work extra hard and just hope town kill themselves. Adding new players, presumably to further town's advantage, is poorly thought out.

"make the game more interesting than a typical mafia game" - imo this game isn't mafia any more because we have these dummy roles, host imvolvement in the game itself, and revival which doesn't appear balanced to the town/mafia numbers. Role info reveal is probably a lesser crime but it's the nail in the coffin.

"If everything is just doctor, nurse, townies, and mafia, it is extremely boring" - please refer to Matt's comment about player participation. Which for the record is NOT "oh I vote x" "yeah I vote x too" "cool". To me, that is boring.

"the clones were there for a reason. They don't affect the actual game except that they are extra people" - see above. People make the mafia. Adding more people, including dummies, changes the outcome because there are simply more people and more variables involved.

"I have seen flaws in other previous mafia games, but nobody decided to point them out, such as a certain # of percent of people confirming their role" - this isn't a flaw. It's called discussion. People are allowed to challenge role claims, and in fact higher level play even in the standard 2 maf vs 5 town (with doc and cop as part of town) counterclaiming is really important as a good mafia counterclaim can sway people into voting wrongly and giving mafia victory. Mafia is not a game of just accepting everything that happens and then not thinking about the alternative scenarios.

"If I have to delete comments, I will for being rude/disrespectful" - I don't know if the viewpoint of a single person is the appropriate measure by which to measure what is rude or disrespectful, but okay

@SputnicK "Seriously as moderators I would expect you to have a level of care towards other peoples feelings" - VIP is not a mod, and this is the internet. Feelings be damned. In seriousness, to quote Bowser himself, people are entitled to their opinions regardless of how hurtful, and like Bowser said himself, don't like it? Ignore. (Ignore doesn't mean delete btw Bowser) Also, I have enough faith in the mods here to recognise an actual hurtful comment and deal with it appropriately.

On that note @Bowser: a comment like "No, Mafia relies on good game balance and role playing and problem solving from the participants. None of that has been demonstrated in this game and all you did on Day 6 was make it even more convoluted. You have too many roles, you're not following your own rules, you keep interfering and adding stupid and unnecessary crap, you decided to add yourself into the game on both sides, and to top it all off you just let Robin ruin the game entirely. Great work." is nowhere near grounds to cry out as being hurtful or disrespectful (unless 'crap' somehow hits your radar like it does LFan's - sorry LFan). Rather than trying to puff yourself up and reject everything, how about challenge each point in a meaningful discussion, without pushing your fixed agenda at the same time? e.g. "Why have I made the game convoluted? Please explain." "In what way was my addition of x 'crap'?" "How did I let Robin ruin the game? Shouldn't he be allowed to because I said so?" Open yourself to questioning. A wall of answers and general resistance to hear others looks incredibly arrogant. Also your definition of harsh complaints is... vague at best.

Marth is not amused.
:ssb4marth::ssb4roy::ssb4ike::ssb4lucina::ssb4robin::ssb4reflet::ssb4corrin::ssb4kamui:

Offline RLWilliams3d

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I would like to re-join the mafia game, Bow Wow. :)

Offline SputnicK

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Quote
@SputnicK "Seriously as moderators I would expect you to have a level of care towards other peoples feelings" - VIP is not a mod, and this is the internet. Feelings be damned. In seriousness, to quote Bowser himself, people are entitled to their opinions regardless of how hurtful, and like Bowser said himself, don't like it? Ignore. (Ignore doesn't mean delete btw Bowser) Also, I have enough faith in the mods here to recognise an actual hurtful comment and deal with it appropriately.
While I agree that the game got convoluted near the end, the way Vip and MattC handled it did not show subtleness or respect for Bowser498 in the slightest. I guess it's less what they said, but how they said it that was over the line. There's helpful, and then there's rude. They way they said it was just rude.

While I agree that the game did not play anything like a traditional one, (I have played many mafia games before this BTW) you have to remember that this is his first try and he was probably unclear on the solid rules that must be followed. And to be honest, I still had fun. Yes I know this is the "internet" and I shouldn't expect nice behavior, but that doesn't excuse outright rudeness from the veterans here of all people. While "Feelings be damned" may be your attitudes towards the world, It certainty isn't mine so I'm sorry If I get a little frustrated by this.

I'm not arguing with your critiques, I'm just asking you to have a level of tact when displaying them.
-SputnicK

Offline SmashBoo

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I never participated in a Mafia game before, so I can't really say this is a better/worse game than the usual. I can't also say that it was bad, because I did have fun with it and the story or "twists" were a good addition to it I think. Count with me if you want to re-do it. However I do understand some flaws that others pointed out, but there's a difference between pointing flaws and be straight rude. I don't think people should be throwing crap all over Bowser498, it's his first time doing it, nobody's perfect at their first time and besides that I believe this game wasn't supposed to have a perfect story, perfect roles when it was planned, it was supposed to be fun, nothing more, nothing less. And what's the point of being rude, sure everyone can say whatever they want, but if you do that you'll just feed your own ego, because you don't need to be rude to criticize things y'know. I think Yoshiman did a great job in offering help, since he has a lot of experience.

Offline MattC

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I never participated in a Mafia game before, so I can't really say this is a better/worse game than the usual. I can't also say that it was bad, because I did have fun with it and the story or "twists" were a good addition to it I think. Count with me if you want to re-do it. However I do understand some flaws that others pointed out, but there's a difference between pointing flaws and be straight rude. I don't think people should be throwing crap all over Bowser498, it's his first time doing it, nobody's perfect at their first time and besides that I believe this game wasn't supposed to have a perfect story, perfect roles when it was planned, it was supposed to be fun, nothing more, nothing less. And what's the point of being rude, sure everyone can say whatever they want, but if you do that you'll just feed your own ego, because you don't need to be rude to criticize things y'know. I think Yoshiman did a great job in offering help, since he has a lot of experience.
So you didn't read anything HJ or I posted.
hey

Offline The Shattered Legacy

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While I agree that the game got convoluted near the end, the way Vip and MattC handled it did not show subtleness or respect for Bowser498 in the slightest. I guess it's less what they said, but how they said it that was over the line. There's helpful, and then there's rude. They way they said it was just rude.

While I agree that the game did not play anything like a traditional one, (I have played many mafia games before this BTW) you have to remember that this is his first try and he was probably unclear on the solid rules that must be followed. And to be honest, I still had fun. Yes I know this is the "internet" and I shouldn't expect nice behavior, but that doesn't excuse outright rudeness from the veterans here of all people. While "Feelings be damned" may be your attitudes towards the world, It certainty isn't mine so I'm sorry If I get a little frustrated by this.

I'm not arguing with your critiques, I'm just asking you to have a level of tact when displaying them.
-SputnicK
Thanks for the reply. Tbh the fact I still cared to write the wall of text, and also to header the subjective section as a sort of warning, to me at least makes me feel like I still have feelings and awareness of sensitivities towards this issue. But I've had enough experience in the past to know when a situation is furile enough to pull out and just... well, not offer the luxury of feelings.

Marth is not amused.
:ssb4marth::ssb4roy::ssb4ike::ssb4lucina::ssb4robin::ssb4reflet::ssb4corrin::ssb4kamui:

Offline Accj21

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My thoughts: It was fun, but confusing. I was getting ready to kick off mine, and guess what? There are 3 more people. It made for unexpected twists, which could be both good and bad. I'm still gonna play when mine is over.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2015 by Accj21 »

Offline BossBlitz

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You know what, I'm actually gonna stay in. If I'm filling in for Geo, might as well get the job done, bad game or not.

:ssb4kirby: :ssb4metaknight: :ssb4villager:

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fruit pancake baguette

Offline SmashBoo

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I never participated in a Mafia game before, so I can't really say this is a better/worse game than the usual. I can't also say that it was bad, because I did have fun with it and the story or "twists" were a good addition to it I think. Count with me if you want to re-do it. However I do understand some flaws that others pointed out, but there's a difference between pointing flaws and be straight rude. I don't think people should be throwing crap all over Bowser498, it's his first time doing it, nobody's perfect at their first time and besides that I believe this game wasn't supposed to have a perfect story, perfect roles when it was planned, it was supposed to be fun, nothing more, nothing less. And what's the point of being rude, sure everyone can say whatever they want, but if you do that you'll just feed your own ego, because you don't need to be rude to criticize things y'know. I think Yoshiman did a great job in offering help, since he has a lot of experience.
So you didn't read anything HJ or I posted.
I did read it, but if you say so. I don't even care anymore.

Offline Some Edgy Wii U Fan

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"STOP HATING ON MY MAFIA GAME!!!"
Meh.
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